Ep.2: Our Origin Story
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About this episode. We always try to start with “why.” And over the last ten or so months, we’ve been asked “why?” a lot—why we’ve been on hiatus for so long and why we left our prior firm. In this episode of The Better Way?, we do our best to answer those questions, while also (and more importantly) sharing the foundational “why” behind our new venture.
In addition to talking about data-driven, human-centered, and evidence-based culture, ethics, and compliance, we discuss: entrepreneurship, the importance of timing, building a different type of consultancy (influenced by a combined decades of experience as the client), taking your own advice, and the importance of protecting an idea that you deeply believe in.
Who? Zach Coseglia + Hui Chen, CDE Advisors
Full Transcript:
ZACH: Welcome back to the Better Way Podcast brought to you by CDE advisors culture data ethics. This is a curiosity podcast for those who ask. There has to be a better way, right? There just has to be. I'm Zach Coseglia and I am joined as always by my friend. The one and only Hui Chen. Hi, Hui.
HUI: Hi Zach. Hello everyone.
ZACH: So here we are for episode 2-ish I have to say before we dive into the topic, Hui, I was a little nervous coming back to our first episode a couple weeks ago and I feel like I was a little rusty, so I'm excited for another go at it today. And I'm always thrilled to have these discussions with you, of course.
HUI: I always felt like you are so on top of this. So you I could not tell that you were nervous. I felt like we just fell right into the group so.
ZACH: That's great. Well, I'm glad you feel that way. And hopefully our listeners do as well. I just think back to a year plus ago when we started the podcast. How nervous and uncomfortable we both were, and I'm glad that we're not there so.
HUI: Oh yes, I I was a wreck, I would say.
ZACH: That is a blessing. Definitely. So, in our last episode, we, I mean maybe a bit begrudgingly added our voices to the many, many voices talking about the DOJ’s FCPA pause. But today, we're going to have a conversation that's a little bit more, a little bit more personal about us and about our business, CDE Advisors. I think as folks know, until maybe two weeks ago, we had been on hiatus for nearly ten months. So today we want to talk about why. To share the origin story of CDE advisors. And to share a little bit more about our, in fact, bigger why. But first, Hui, why don't you tell us what CDE is, and specifically for those folks who haven't figured it out, although surely they have, what those letters stand for.
HUI: CDE stands for culture, data ethics. That's what we do. That's what we believe in.
ZACH: Absolutely. So, look, I mean to me what those letters represent and what our business is all about is data-driven, first of all. Human centered and evidence-based culture, compliance, and ethics. That is what we do.
HUI: Very much so. And our goal here—and I I'm so glad you mentioned that last our last episode, which the first resumption episode, was the “obligatory word.” And I want that to be our last word on that issue because what we believe in is ethics and compliance in service of the organization's performance. And we believe culture, data, and ethics are central to how an organization performs—not just for its current employees and investors and stakeholders, but really for the next generation of investors and stakeholders. We want to help organizations perform and perform in a way that earns them trust.
ZACH: Amazing. So, dig into that a little bit more and talk to us about how culture data and ethics play a role in performance. What role do each of those things play in helping a company achieve its goals?
HUI: Culture drives performance. Culture in, you know, I'm sure we will have more conversations about all aspects of and complexities of culture in in episodes to come. But culture really, if you put it simply is, you know, how we do things around here. So that is very clearly related to how an organization performs. Because how you do things is how you perform.
ZACH: Absolutely.
HUI: That's literally a translation of, you know, one is the equivalent of the other. So, culture drives performance. Data measures performance. And we don't wanna do anything these days without being able to measure the accomplishments of those efforts. So, we very much believe in being able to measure what you set out to do— and that is how every successful organization aims to do. There is not one business organization that does not measure its revenue, for example.
ZACH: Of course.
HUI: Exactly. So, data is how we measure performance and finally ethics. Ethics is the principles that guide your performance. What kind of performance does this organization want to give—and how does it go about decisions that impact the direction that it goes? That is ethics, so to us it's all about culture, data, ethics . . . in driving, measuring and guiding an organization’s performance.
ZACH: Absolutely. I. You know, it's funny, 'cause, we've talked about this before, but I think about culture as the ultimate root cause. You've heard me say this before: that when things go wrong, maybe you've got an investigation, maybe someone's reported a potential issue, maybe you're experiencing some turmoil? If you ask enough “why”
questions as part of a root cause analysis, along that way, you're probably gonna encounter things like policies that weren't clear or policies that were ignored; or training that was ineffective; or a system of governance that wasn't sufficiently overseeing whatever the issue was, and so on.
But if you keep asking enough why questions you're gonna wind up in most cases, staring culture straight in the face. So, in all of the work we do, whether it's building a stronger organization, nurturing our people or building a culture of ethics and compliance—in ways that are ultimately going to effectively manage risk—we've got to have the right culture as a foundation.
On data, you know, I think about the conversations that we have with our clients every day, where we hear things, in those very early conversations—maybe we've not even begun working with them yet, we're just getting to know their program; and we will hear folks say, “Well, I think our risk assessment's pretty good; it probably needs a little bit of work. We'd love for you to look at that. But we feel really great . . . culture is top notch. Our culture is performing. As good as we could hope. As is our training, we just have really great training.” Then, we do what is not really particularly sophisticated, we just ask them, “let's talk about that training that you think is great. Why do you think it's performing so well?” And it's rare. It is rare that we actually get data-driven, evidence-based answers to that question. And yet we see folks investing a lot of time and money in all things, you know, culture and compliance and ethics related; and yet we don't often hear good answers to some of those questions about how. How do you know that it's working?
And then you know, with ethics, I just think about the opportunity that we all have in this Community (and I don't think that we're, you know, kind of on the leading edge of this point, I think there are many, many who share our view on this), but it's about making compliance initiatives or, you know, internal organizational initiatives about more than—as you always say—about more than just ensuring that we are not breaking the law. That's that's a, that's a that's a bar too low for most organizations and certainly for those that we work with. And that's where to me ethics comes into play. It's the . . . not the can we do this? It's the should we do this question?
HUI: Yeah. So let me let me, you know, come back with some thoughts as as you were talking about these, so you know on culture, how many times, Zach, you and I have done a lot of investigations together. How many times have we interviewed someone who has clearly been engaging in wrongdoing? And they would sit there, and they would tell us, “yes,” they know about the policies. “Yes,” they attended the trainings. But then, we asked them, “why do you do what you did?” “So, well, everybody around me does that.” That's, you know, that's the real training I got.
ZACH: Yes.
HUI: My boss showed me how to do this. My colleague when I didn't know how to do something, I didn't go to a training manual. I turn around to my colleague and say “how do you do this?” And they told me how to do this.
ZACH: Yes.
HUI: That is the power of culture, right? It's truly that the human beings around you that that influence you and shape you.
ZACH: Yes. Yes.
HUI: In how you behave in this organization and . . .
ZACH: Yes, it's the . . . it's the how we do things around here, as you said. It’s also the how we treat each other. And it's the social norms of it all. The social norms that exist within an organization that, I'm sorry, are just so much more powerful than a policy.
HUI: Very much.
ZACH: And that's deeply rooted in our point of view.
HUI: And I always like to use this example. I mean, as everybody knows that—or at least people who fly frequently know that—United and Continental merged more than 10 years ago. But I swear to this day, more than 10 years later, I can board a plane, and I can tell which is the legacy Continental and which is the legacy United, because they have entirely different attitudes when it comes to how they treat passengers.
ZACH: Absolutely.
HUI: So I'm not going to say which is which, right? But, but it's very obvious. And that’s powerful it is—but let me also get to the to the data point.
ZACH: Absolutely.
HUI: You know one of my favorite data stories was when I was at DOJ. I was working with a monitor and the monitor you know, just conducted a review, and he said, you know, he had this finding about people sort of misusing their corporate credit card. So, he proposed to do a companywide training for corporate credit cards. And to your point, I just asked for one data point. How many people have corporate credit cards? And it turns out it was about 10-15% the company. So, this is the oftentimes people's gut reaction to things. Is that, “Oh my gosh, we see a problem. Let's train everybody.” Get the data point first. How many people are actually involved in this particular risk that you're trying to remediate and really if you dive into those data, you will see how many, you know, out of those . . .
ZACH: Yes. Yes.
HUI: 10-15%, it probably is 3% of those that are actually abusing. So, you don't need to have overkill solutions if you really dig into the data that tell you what is going on so. And finally on ethics, I think, in addition to your point about not just obeying the law: one of the problems that we see today is that we are increasingly in a world where we disagree on what the law should be.
ZACH: Hmm.
HUI: And a lot of times people are finding that they're going to see situations where the latest regulation or the latest enforcement priority is something that they might feel uncomfortable with. And there are different factions of people in our society, and they are all represented in most organizations. So, how do you get your stakeholders to align on what is a . . . a set of common values in your organization? How do you behave in this world where we're all increasingly divided and really, as we often say, there really is no such thing as, quote, do the right thing, unquote. That's agreeable to everyone.
ZACH: No, there is not.
HUI: Yep.
ZACH: We've done a whole. We've actually done a whole episode about that before. I think we've done multiple episodes about that before and I'm sure we will do at least another on that very topic . . . because it is such it's a pet peeve of both of ours, in fact, of of defaulting to—in this world of complexity and in this world of increasing tension and discord around what is right—defaulting to: “Just do what's right. Just do the right thing.”
HUI: And a very simple example is DEI: diversity, equity and inclusion today, right? So for many years that's been you know something that just about everybody says that we want in organizations. The federal government has programs to promote DEI . . . that is now being 180° reversed. And now there's directive that would look to penalize organizations that promote DEI. What is right? What is wrong? You're not gonna have a large organization where everybody agrees that either one side is right or the other side is is, you know is right. You just how do you find a way forward? I think that's the ethical challenge of today.
ZACH: Yeah. And when I think about so much of the work that we do on the culture side, whether it's exclusively on the culture side or at the intersection of culture and compliance and ethics, one of the things that has been a recurring theme, I think in our work, is that those who are struggling—or those who feel and in fact do have more work to do around building the culture that is going to support the performance that they aspire to—they first and foremost don't really have an agreed, top level identity of who we are, what we believe to be good and right—and what fills that void is uncertainty; is often discord; is individual or team specific ideas of what the business's identity should be. And it really, ultimately hampers performance. It . . . makes it much more difficult for those folks to succeed as one.
HUI: Absolutely.
ZACH: Hui, I wonder if it makes sense to take just a little step back because we've talked a lot about our why—we really have. I mean, it's all as we said about culture, data ethics and about human centered data-driven and evidence-based work. But I want to talk a little bit about some of the reasons why we moved on from the big organization that we used to be a part of prior to founding CDE.
I think many of our listeners know that we were previously together at a different firm before launching CDE. It was a a large organization. An old and very prestigious, but large organization, where I'd founded a data analytics and behavioral science consulting practice back in like 2020.
And I've been asked a lot since then, “Why did we leave?” Or “why did I leave?” And I want to share some of those thoughts and reasons with folks today. But without being too cheeky, it really starts with this. And you can call me . . . you all can call me a company man. Or accuse me of towing the company line. But it really is true. It started with, I think both of us, but I certainly feel this way saying to myself multiple times a day, “there has to be a better way.”
HUI: I almost I . . .
ZACH: “They're just has to be.”
HUI: I almost wanted to say it simultaneous with you. There could be like a chant that we just do together in unison, but absolutely yes.
ZACH: Exactly. Exactly. And so, we really took a dose of our own medicine. I mean, that is a huge part of our origin story. We did something about it. That, to me is the simplest origin story for CDE Advisors. There had to be a better way. We were convinced of it, and I think that we found it.
HUI: We absolutely have. So, I will say: only you could have made me join a large law firm, which was something that even my parents couldn't make me do when I was coming out of law school. They kept saying, “why don't you just go to a law firm?” I did have multiple offers from very large prestigious law firms, but you know my dream was always to be a prosecutor. So, you know, no question, when I got the Honors program offer from DOJ, there was no comparison, even though it paid a fraction of what the law firms were offering me.
But for me, the idea of just doing billable hours just was never—I would not even say it was not appealing; it was just really something I clearly very much did not want to do. And when you went to the law firm, I said, “you're doing really great stuff, but I kind of wish it wasn't at a law firm.” But then I watched what you were doing, and I watched you sort of build that practice. And I thought this is pretty amazing that he's managed to do all of this in a in a more traditional—a large organization—doing something that they didn't typically do. So, you convinced me to to do something that I had resisted doing for my entire career. And I'm glad we, at least, I could, I should say . . . for me, I'm glad I experienced it, but I do find what we do now much more fulfilling for me.
ZACH: Absolutely, absolutely. And one of the words that immediately came to my mind as I was thinking through the answer to this question of “why?” was: entrepreneurship. And it's something that . . . I I've always had this entrepreneurial bug. You know, when I was a kid, I remember being 10 or 11 years old and launching my own neighborhood newspaper.
HUI: Oh, my goodness.
ZACH: It was short lived. It was more, sort of National Enquirer, than New York Times. But that is it was terrible. Let's just be clear. But that's my earliest memory of this sort of drive—that I feel like I still have and have had throughout my career—to build new things. To merge that kind of creative part of my mind with the strategic and analytical part of my mind. To have an idea and to make it a reality. Doing that is such a gratifying experience.
And when I look back at my career up till this point, I feel like I've done that. I think you see signs of that throughout my career. Being a big firm, being a big firm lawyer, being a law firm, lawyer of any kind, is inherently entrepreneurial. You gotta build your practice. You gotta develop client relationships. You gotta set yourself apart.
When I was in house, you know, I built and sort of reimagined teams. And I loved doing that, first, as an investigator; and then I built, as you know, as I think a lot of people know, what was really one of the first risk and behavioral analytics functions within a global compliance department. It wasn't staffed with lawyers, but with data scientists and statisticians, and all these other skill sets that at the time you would have been hard pressed to find within a compliance team.
And then I had this idea, what if we built a consultancy that offered data-driven and human centered approaches? And that really acknowledged and led with this belief that organizational ethics, compliance and culture issues weren't legal, regulatory and enforcement related. Or at least weren’t exclusively so. But part of the idea at the time—part of what I actually thought the genius of the idea at the time—was putting it within a global law firm, and providing a different type of legal service.
But to go back to this point about entrepreneurship, I think in doing so we lost some of the benefits of early-stage entrepreneurialism that I actually find so exciting. You know, we were a startup; but we were embedded within a large 160 year old organization. And there were so many benefits of being part of a bigger organization, being part of a very prestigious, elite organization—and we built a very successful business. But what I began to realize, was that a lot of the benefits started to weigh more towards security. And I think that the truest form of entrepreneurship really requires risk. It is a scary proposition to go out on your own. And until this point in my career, I'd always been drawn to the fun side of entrepreneurship. I wasn't . . . I was never fully ready to lean into the terrifying aspects of it. No guaranteed paycheck, no brand name to stand on. Just me and you and a big part of the answer to the question “why?” is: I was finally ready to take that risk.
HUI: And so far, is it worth taking?
ZACH: Oh, my God. Absolutely. Absolutely, absolutely. And it's funny, I think about . . . I think about how, even before we went to the big firm, where we where we were before this, I think about the rooftop drink that you and I had back in like 2018-2019 where I tried to convince you to . . .
HUI: Oh yeah.
ZACH: . . . do this then.
HUI: Yes.
ZACH: And it's another really important sort of kind of element of any journey: which is timing. The timing just wasn't right then, but it was right now . . . and it's been great.
HUI: I do remember telling you at that time, don't go to a law firm. Right? And and and I think I when you did choose to go to a law firm, I could completely understand the reason. In fact, I articulated those reason in the same breath as . . .
ZACH: You did.
HUI: . . . as my advice to you not to go to a law firm. But I think a lot of this has to do . . . I mean, the way we ultimately decided to come and start CDE Advisors is . . . is because of the deep belief that we articulated earlier that this is about culture, data, ethics and not—not only a not exclusively legal and regulatory exercise, but I would say . . . I would like to think it's not even a predominantly legal and regulatory exercise.
ZACH: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
HUI: That's how we view it.
ZACH: I mean that, and that brings me to sort of one of the other themes that came to mind as I was thinking about the answer to this question of “why?” And that is: protecting the idea. You know, we, we, we we were doing really well at the old shop.
But I wasn't sure . . . I was never sure that the original idea for this disruptive boutique consultancy that had a very specific point of view, as we've just talked about around culture, ethics and compliance, could realize its full potential within a law firm.
You know, and in addition to that, I had a very clear vision; but you know, when you become part of a larger organization, any larger organization, especially so early in the development of that business, the idea starts to morph and sometimes by committee.
HUI: Very much so. And you know, I, thankfully, part of the deal we made when when I joined you over there was that that you would deal with the bureaucracy. You sheltered all the rest of us, particularly me. I do not deal well with bureaucracy. Believe it or not, so . . . but even having been sheltered by you, there are some things that you simply can't do as a small part of a large organization. So, something as simple as pricing, for example, right? So, any atypical—anything but standard hourly rate—would have to be approved by the firm, and that's very understandable. If I were to run a large firm, that's what I would do too. But that really gives us that gives us a lot less flexibility to be able to do creative pricing, fixed pricing, different alternative fee models. Not to say that that they didn't approve them.; but there was a process that you had to follow. We couldn't just the two of us agree: this is how you know we want to be pricing our project and just offer that to the client.
ZACH: Yes.
HUI: It has to go through that extra tier. We wanted to redesign the web page, but the web page has to have a consistent look and feel for the rest of the firm.
ZACH: Yeah.
HUI: Again, if I were running the firm, that's exactly what I would require. But that does mean that whatever creativity . . . that we want to exhibit on our web page would be limited by that framework, so we just couldn't do it. And I am, by the way and so proud of how our website looks. And I have received many comments about the the the, the how great that branding looks.
ZACH: We have a very we have a very skilled art department. They, they really are . . .
HUI: Indeed.
ZACH: . . . they're doing a really a really nice job. I wanna go back to the point about protecting the idea. But before we then go there, I actually wanna address this point about pricing. And I think what's really interesting about the the shift that we've sort of facilitated for ourselves is that, yeah, you're right, of course, if we came up with creative pricing models with clients, they would more often than not get approved. I can't even think of a scenario where they wouldn't get approved. But I think that the big difference between us being out on our own as a boutique consultancy versus being a part of any law firm is that today, as has been the case for decades, the default in the law community is a billable hour. And you then work against that default, or you come up with exceptions to that default through creativity, through client discussion, through problem solving.
But at CDE, the billable hour is not our default. Our default is anything but the billable hour. In fact, we don't do work on really anything other than a fixed price, and the benefits for that are huge and they are more than just financial, they are substantive. I think that it enables us to really give the client clarity and certainty about price. It enables us to focus on the work and to really live our values, which prioritize things like brainstorming, creativity, innovation, disruption, to testing, rejecting, testing again to find the right solution . . . in ways that are not constrained by a constantly ticking clock. So, it's a huge differentiator in my mind. It also, I will say it just creates a happier consultant. And happier consultants are much better to work for—or with.
HUI: And . . . I think you know a better cost-controlled consultant. But I, you know, wasn't it yesterday that the two of us were on, you know brainstorming about this workshop that's coming up and at the end of it we said that was so good to be able to do that without having to worry about how much time we spend on it, that you know that really you know that is the that is our normal now.
ZACH: Absolutely.
HUI: We we work on projects. We brainstorm, we think about creative ways to address the clients’ needs without having to worry about, “oh, stop, start the clock.” You stop the clock and that's really liberating and that liberation feeds into the creativity that we're able to have. And I'll say the other thing that I love with the way we work right now, we're happy to tell clients that you get what you see here. You are working with Zach and way—and only Zach and way.
ZACH: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, the law firm takes a very—and it's not really just law firms—it's any kind of large professional services organization. You know, it operates in sort of a leveraged model. And what often happens is, you know, one group of people go in to pitch the work another group of people are often actually doing the bulk of the work. And it gives us so much joy to be able to say to a client: “we're here to tell you why you should hire us, and once you have hired us, these are the faces—Zach and Hui—that you're gonna be actually working with.” I appreciate that having spent the better part of my career as have you, as the client, and I think the clients do as well.
I wanna go back to this point though, on protecting the idea. ‘Cause if we're being really fair and honest, so much as we said of our point of view of our bigger why is about these activities not being predominantly legal regulatory enforcement activities. And so, think about it: of course, being in a law firm is going to create some amount of tension or you know some amount of disconnect . . . because that's what law firms do. They help people solve legal problem—legal, regulatory and enforcement problems. And so, of course, while there may be a lot of good reasons to sort of combine the two, it also, ultimately, became, as I said, sort of restrictive. Not from a professional perspective. Not from a personal perspective. But from the perspective of protecting this idea—that deeply held belief and value, that is what leads us every day, which is that these are human issues. These are cultural issues. These are data issues. That sometimes intersect with the law.
HUI: Very much so. I would say. I remember that our first project when we started CDE was a couple of culture assessments with organizations, and that is . . . and I'm not talking about culture of compliance assessments. This is organizational culture that we were helping clients assess. And we were working, not with the compliance officers of these organizations, we're working with the COOs and CEOs and the boards of these organizations. It’s not something that they would typically go to a law firm to do because that's not the specialty of law firms. And being able to look at organizations truly in a way to assess their culture so that they can enhance their performance . . . was just awesome.
I love the fact that we named ourselves CDE and our first projects were culture assessment projects. And we even got feedback from clients that they have never really seen culture survey done in the way we did it, which was so much more than just a survey that's pushed out. So, you know you . . . I mean, I know we've had conversations with the CEOs of these client organizations who just really appreciated the work that we did to help their organizations perform and that's something that would be difficult to do in an organization that does not specialize in that.
ZACH: Absolutely. I mean, let's be clear: we don't provide legal services. That was not a legal service.
HUI: Nope.
ZACH: But when you're part of a larger law firm, you may have a unique practice, but we were legal services providers and we were at a law firm. And so, what that often would lead to is us actually not being able to win some of this work that we are doing a lot of now because it raised questions on all sides about whether and why a law firm should be doing that type of work. And that was a big area of identified opportunity for us that we've really been able to maximize now that we are just a fundamentally different organization. We are not—we're not a law firm. We are not providing legal services.
I wanna share a couple other a couple other thoughts. One is—and you've you've really hit on this really well, but, you know, it's just flexibility. Not being part of a large organization has just made us 100% more agile. We are able to develop new products and services. We are able to market those products and services. We are able to participate in important thought leadership so much more meaningfully and so much faster than we could before.
Now, you know it's interesting because when you look at our backgrounds, you and I have spent a lot of time in large, complex matrix organizations. And we've and we've thrived in them; but those organizations, whether it was for you, I mean the US government which I guess is probably the biggest oldest . . .
HUI: Indeed.
ZACH: . . . organization in our country. Or whether it's big tech or Big Pharma or financial services; or for me, you know, big law or Big Pharma. These are decades, but in some cases, century or centuries, old organizations—and it's tough to build a start-up and to foster and protect that sort of unique microculture when you're operating within the parent. So, to me, the flexibility that we have is such an important element of our own culture, and it's been huge to being able to deliver what we are delivering for our clients now.
HUI: In the thought leadership space in particular, I really feel this. When this FCPA pause thing came out and we felt like we should weigh in with some thoughts on it, we were able to get our piece up in a day, which if we were in organization, it would likely take longer. Also, I wouldn't have been as free to discuss matters in the way that I like to. I am known—and I'm proud to say—I'm known for giving people the candid view on things. And that candor a lot of times, again, when you are part of a larger organization, is necessarily limited by the potential conflict of interest within the organization that you know because the organization is so much larger than you. They have to be mindful that there are people whose interest might be not aligned with the views that you're expressing. There may even have people who have clients who have contradictory views or interest as what you have and are expressing. So not having those limitations and being able to free to be to freely be who we are, authentic selves, I really treasure that.
ZACH: Absolutely. I mean, it's a huge part of who we are. It's a huge part of the values that we talk about with our clients; and to go back to the point about the ultimate origin story being rooted in us constantly saying “there has to be a better way,” it really is the only way for us to really live our truth and to walk the walk.
Well, Hui, it has been so much fun having this conversation with you, as always. When I think back about the conversation that we've had some better ways kind of stand out immediately. The first is we talk about a lot, maybe too much, is really understanding your “why?,” your organization's “why?,” the “why?” behind whatever initiative you're working on. Having clarity of that is actually going to help you get to a better result.
Another better way, I guess, that that I extract from our conversation is listening to yourself. You know, I sat there saying “there has to be a better way. There just has to be.” And finally, we both listened to ourselves, and we took the risk of taking our own medicine and ultimately finding what I think is very much our better way.
And then of course, in our bigger why, I think are a lot of potential better ways for folks to explore. Which is a more data-driven human centered evidence-based approach to culture, ethics and compliance. But of course, it's important to remember that our podcast is not called The Better Way Podcast, period. It's The Better Way Podcast, with a question mark. We don't have all of the better ways, but we are on a journey to find them; and Hui, thank you for being on this journey with me and thanks to all of our listeners for being on this journey with us.
HUI: Thank you all. Let's keep asking about “where are the better ways?”
ZACH: And thank you all for tuning in to The Better Way? Podcast. For more information about this or anything else that’s happening with CDE Advisors, visit our website at www.CDEAdvisors.com, where you can also check out the Better Way blog. And please like and subscribe to this series on Apply or Spotify. And, finally, if you have thoughts about what we talked about today, the work we do here at CDE, or just have ideas for Better Ways we should explore, please don’t hesitate to reach out—we’d love to hear from you. Thanks again for listening.